Meeting of the Saltwater Recreational Fishing License Discussion Group
March 12, 2004
Sportfishing Educational Center

Attending:
P. Augustine
A. Clemetson, NY Sea Grant Extension Program
G. Colvin, NYSDEC
D. Conover, MSRC
N. Delanoy, Captree Boatmens Association
D. Dietz, Blue Collar Anglers
B. Ellis, Senior Citizen Anglers of Suffolk County
J. Ferrera, Sportfishing Education Center
M. Hoffman, Atlantis Anglers
J. House, North Fork Captains Association
D. Kanyuk, United Boatmen
J. Mantione, New York Fishing Tackle Trade Association
J. McBride, Marine Resources Advisory Council
G. Meyers
J. Richy, Terminal Tackle
J. Schoenig, Imperial Sportsman Club
F. Schwab, Marine Resources Advisory Council, Emeritus
William Wise, MSRC

Invited, unable to attend:
B. Danielson, Marine Resources Advisory Council
M. Dearborn, Marine Resources Advisory Council
J. Feliccia, New York Sport Fishing Federation
S. Holder
J. McMurray, Salty Flyrodders
T. Melton, The Fisherman magazine
R. Remmer, Esq.
G. Scocca, Noreast Saltwater magazine
A. Somma, Marine Resources Advisory Council
E. Sullivan, Marine Resources Advisory Council
C. Witek, Coastal Conservation Association

Discussion Group Leader Bill Wise (MRAC) thanked the Sportfishing
Educational Center for its hospitality in again hosting the meeting.  He
clarified that the opinions expressed at these meetings by discussion group
members do not necessarily represent the view of the organization an
individual might be representing.  They are individual opinions and should
be viewed as such.  He asked that when a group member is stating the
official view/position of the group he/she represents, this should be made
clear. 

Before the meeting began Dennis Kanyuk thanked Gordon Colvin for his hard
work and effort on behalf of New Yorks marine recreational fishing
industry at a recent fluke meeting held in Washington, DC.  He stated,
"Gordon Colvin went to bat like no other state director Ive ever seen at a
council or commission meeting go to bat for their particular state,
especially for the recreational industry.  He deserves a lot of thanks and
gratitude."  The group applauded Mr. Colvin for his efforts.

Mr. Wise asked the members if they thought it would be useful and
informative to invite Mr. John Long, Chairman of the State Conservation
Fund Advisory Board, to a future meeting of the group.  Mr. Long is very
familiar with many issues raised with sport licensing and oversight of how
DEC spends revenues generated from license monies.  Mr. Wise suggested that
Mr. Long would be able to answer many of the groups questions regarding
the current state hiring freeze being applied to DEC positions funded
through sporting licenses.  The group gave the go-ahead to Mr. Wise to
arrange a visit by Mr. Long to a future meeting.

Mr. Joe McBride wanted it on the record that he has been given the
authority by the Montauk Boatmens and Captains Association to explore the
issue of a marine recreational fishing license on their behalf.

Mr. Wise reminded the group that todays meeting was meant to discuss DEC
programs and activities that might be funded through revenues from a marine
recreational fishing license that the recreational fishing industry would
think valuable and supportive of the various interests represented within
the industry.  He stated that Mr. Colvin had prepared a straw list of such
programs that was based on his discussions with the recreational fishing
community over the years.

Mr. Colvin handed out the straw list of activities.  The rest of the
meeting was spent reviewing these suggested programs and activities and
coming to a preliminary decision as to whether each would likely be of
sufficient interest to the group to warrant further consideration as a
component of a saltwater license revenue expenditure plan.  Each suggested
activity is described, along with potential fishery management outcomes if
it is successfully implemented.  Explanatory comments from Mr. Colvin are
given next, followed by a summary of the groups reaction to the suggested
program or activity.


I.  Improved recreational fisherydependent data collection programs

A.  Expansion and improvements to MRFSS  Conduct independent surveys to
determine with a high level of confidence the true magnitude and
distribution of marine recreational fishing effort in New York (including
geographic, seasonal, modal, time of date, duration, etc. distribution of
angling trips and anglers residences).  New York State would assume
responsibility and accountability for substantially expanded intercept and
telephone surveys that are distributed proportionate to angling effort and
that produce statistically valid estimates of marine recreational fishing
catch and effect.

Outcome  accurate and reliable marine recreational catch estimates that
can be used to help reach equitable quota management decisions.  Marine
recreational catch distribution data that is sufficiently robust to enable
evaluation of differential regulations in different modes and/or geographic
areas.

Comments- The consensus on this was generally positive; everyone seemed to
feel that this should be a /the top priority, especially in light of the
current situation with fluke.  Most fishermen feel that inaccurate data is
to be blamed for the drastic reductions that will be required in New Yorks
recreational catch of fluke (and scup) in 2004 recommendation; these
reductions could probably have been avoided with more accurate recreational
catch data.  One or two group members stated that just adding more money to
the MRFSS survey would not alleviate the problem of inaccurate data.  It
was counter-argued that better data would help support the viewpoints
expressed by the marine recreational fishing community because these
viewpoints would rest on firmer data.

Mr. Colvin informed everyone that MRFSS has now been put under the umbrella
of ACCSP (Atlantic Coast Cooperative Statistics Program.)  One ACCSP
recommendation is that the oversight responsibility for administration and
management of the MRFSS contractors activities in each state be
transferred from the National Marine Fisheries Service to the states.  The
states would then be in a position (not to necessarily hire staff, ASMFC is
responsible for that) but to place the staff in a particular state to
oversee the activities and performance of the MRFSS survey.  This would
enable the information to be more precise as opposed to grabbing a few
people in a parking lot at the end of the day.


B.  Fisheries Observer Data  Place observers on "for-hire" recreational
fishing vessels and commercial fishing vessels to observe, record and
measure discards.

Outcomes - Generation of estimates of discards and discard mortality for
use in regional stock assessments.  The lack of a reliable discard
estimate, for example, has specifically prevented adoption of a
quantitative assessment for scup, leaving the relative abundance index from
the NMFS spring trawl survey as the sole basis of determining stock status
and quotas.  Length-frequency information from released fish in for-hire
recreational fishery would enable the estimation, for example, of the
impact of reducing size limits on recreational harvest levels.

Comments  There was general agreement that more adequately documenting,
and then reducing discards and discard mortality is important.  A similar
issue with the "for hire" fishery relates to understanding size limits.
Should we want to roll back recreational size limits back at some point in
the future, sound information would be needed on the length/frequency and
length distribution of fish that were released in order to reasonably
estimate the affect of lowering size limits.  MRFFS provides information
about the length/frequency of harvested fish but it does not give the
length/frequency of discarded fish.  Mr. Colvin noted the current Northeast
Fisheries Observer Program, run out of the NMFS Northeast Fisheries Center
in Woods Hole, Massachusetts.  This program is funded by NMFS with
appropriations focused primarily on groundfish because of the need for
observer programs to meet the mandates of the federal court in the
groundfish litigation.    NMFS also puts observers on vessels in the
mid-Atlantic, an activity funded mainly from its Protected Species Program.
Mr. Colvin commented that there just isnt enough money in the budgets of
these observer programs to expand them to include the recreational fishing
industry.

Some group members felt that there should be an equitable share paid by the
commercial fishing industry if the state were to put observers on both
recreational "for-hire" boats and commercial fishing vessels. There was
some skepticism expressed that observer data would not be accorded much
weight in the fisheries management process because of what is viewed by
some as the questionable accuracy and reliability of NMFS fishery observer
data.  Mr. Colvin reminded the group that, if Program/Activity A, above,
were implemented, DEC would assume responsibility and accountability for
such observer programs.  This suggested activity was generally, but not
unanimously supported by the group


C.   Cooperative Angler Programs  Implement Cooperative Angler programs
for all major recreational species to acquire data on recreational
catch/effort, size frequency of released and landed fish, and scale samples
for aging.

Outcome -  Avid, involved marine anglers have an opportunity to contribute
valuable data to fisheries managers.  Data is generated to compare to and
use to help assess and control the quality of MRFSS data on New Yorks
marine recreational fishery.  Accurate and reliable Catch-Per-Unit-Effort
(CPUE), length/frequency, and age data for popular species in the marine
recreational fishery would result in improved stock assessments.

Comments -  The group agreed that it would be beneficial and useful to have
a broader Cooperative Anglers Program that covered the major marine
recreational fishery in which DEC would work directly with individual
anglers to establish and maintain a diary of individual catch and effort
data and to furnish DEC with measurements of fish that they catch and
release, and the fish that they catch and keep.  This would be useful
because you would be working directly with the biologists and learning a
lot more about the fishery in question and they would be learning a lot
more from you.  Mr. Colvin told the group that these interactions in the
Cooperative Angler Program have been positive and the data collected by
anglers enrolled in the program has been helpful.  There was a consensus
that this is also a good program.  The group will continue to consider it
for inclusion in a license revenue expenditure program.


II.  New fishery-independent data collection programs 

A.  Trawl/seine surveys in Atlantic Ocean and South Shore Bays  Conduct
periodic trawl and seine surveys for resource & forage species in State
waters of the Atlantic Ocean and in the South Shore Bays.

Outcomes  generation of new time series of data on abundance and
distribution of fish in New York will lead to improved regional stock
assessments.  Had such data existed in the past, they may have been used to
tune the weakfish assessment (absence of northern tuning indices is
probably resulting in overly optimistic stock condition projections) or as
a supplemental index for scup (use of NMFS spring survey data only, has
probably resulted in overly pessimistic stock condition projections).  Can
also produce information on year-class strength of weakfish, winter
flounder, scup and tautog on South Shore, and of abundance and dynamics of
forage fish species.

Comments  Currently there is no information available regarding abundance
and distribution of fish in the near shore Atlantic Ocean, south and east
of Long Island.  The NMFS groundfish survey in the Northeast and
Mid-Atlantic does not sample within New Yorks marine waters.    Benefits
that would stem from these surveys can be illustrated using two species,
scup and weakfish.  Until now the information received from the NMFS
groundfish survey has been hit and miss.  More inshore trawl catches of
this species are required to adequately estimate the condition of the scup
resource.  The VPA-based stock assessment for weakfish has concluded that
weakfish are extremely abundant and the fishing mortality rate is extremely
low.  These conclusions are probably incorrect of where the weakfish catch
data is collected.  The weakfish stock assessment is tuned to the Jersey
stock data; all of the indices from more northerly stock components have
been rejected by the weakfish stock assessment review committee.  If the
limited northern indices had been factored into the last weakfish stock
assessment, the fishing mortality rate would have been higher and the
biomass estimate would have been lower and we would have been cracking down
on the expanded southern fisheries.

Currently Stony Brook University has the contract to provide vessel support
to the New Jersey Atlantic Ocean trawl survey.  There are usually 4/5 trips
a year (approximately 8 days, 2 of those days are used for transit) and
they do about 37 random stations, costing on average $18,000/trip.  

The group endorsed the idea of greater fisheries independent surveys of
marine species.  It was commented that the relative abundances of marine
finfish species can vary dramatically over time; the frequency of such
surveys should be sufficient to detect these variations.  It was also
mentioned to have information gathered about weakfish spawning on actual
flats and if it does happen.  Most of the group felt that major
opportunities are missed and problems caused for the recreational fishing
industry by inaccurate data on the condition of marine fish stocks and the
suggested surveys are one way to improve the quality of this data.


III.   Expanded Law Enforcement Capability

A.  Increase the number of Environmental Conservation Officers in the
Marine Unit of DECs Division of Law Enforcement, and expand their patrol
capabilities through acquisition of additional vessels and equipment.

Outcomes  Improved visibility and response time for marine enforcement.
Reduced frequency and number of illegally taken fish.  (Question for
anglers:  "How much would you be willing to pay to know that even one less
illegal striper will be harvested?")

Comments  The general consensus of the group was that a greater and more
visible law enforcement presence was needed on the waters of the Marine
District to deter potential violators and catch actual violators.  Many in
the group felt that expanded marine law enforcement was a potentially high
cost alternative use of saltwater license revenues with perhaps not the
greatest benefit to the recreational industry per license revenue dollar
spent.  It seemed to enjoy a middling level of priority within the groups
members.  It was pointed out that certain issues of importance to the
marine recreational fishing community (e.g., the 2004 required reductions
in fluke catches) are producing a level of disgust and frustration among
recreational fishermen such that that they are breaking the laws knowingly
and purposely.


IV.  Service to Anglers

Outreach and Extension Programs - Substantially expand The I FISH NY
Program in DEC Regions 1 (Nassau-Suffolk Counties) and 2 (New York City);
initiate the program in Region 3 (lower Hudson River Valley).

Outcome  Angler education programs, partner programs for educating and
recruiting youths to marine angling and conducting fishing clinics and
related events are significantly expanded.  Urban and suburban anglers are
surveyed to determine their needs.  Focused projects are initiated to
provide information, access improvements, clinics and training programs
identified via the surveys.  Recruitment and retention of future anglers,
particularly from youth and minority populations of New York City, Nassau
and western Suffolk Counties.

Comments: most group members viewed this as a good idea.  However, many
commented with frustration on the state hiring freeze that is currently in
place.  Since all these programs will be new, you are going to have to hire
people to implement them.  This was viewed as very frustrating because
without being able to touch this money to hire more staff, there is little
chance of actually expanding the I FISH NEW YORK Program.

Angler Information  Produce informational materials about marine fishing
access and opportunities and species that where/how to fish for them for
distribution via DEC website and publication (like Floridas or Virginias)

Outcome - Anglers have ready access to information on how/what/where +
regulations + consumption advisories, etc.

C. Promotion of Marine Sportfishing in New York - DEC partners with
industry, Long Island Tourism and Convention Bureau, I LOVE NY Program,
etc., to promote New Yorks marine sport fisheries.  "Empire State
Outdoors" and other state and national television and tourism websites
should be a focal point for these efforts.

Outcome  An increased awareness of the diversity and quality of New Yorks
marine recreational fishing experiences and opportunities in local and
regional markets results in increase participation, particularly by
out-of-region and out-of-state anglers.

Comments for #1 & #2:  More promotional information should be made
available in publication format as well as promotional programs.  To do
this there will be a partnership with the industry to promote tourism in a
statewide I LOVE NY Program, which will be considered outreach.  Also, New
York State government is producing a new television program, called,
"Empire State Outdoors," to publicize outdoor programs and activities.
There are myriad of cable television opportunities that can be utilized to
describe saltwater fishing in New York and each one will be researched to
find the best possible means of promoting recreational fishing
opportunities.

D.  Artificial Reefs - Conduct biological and angler surveys of current and
proposed reef sites.  Construct reefs using manufactured reef materials
(e.g. reef balls) and materials of opportunity.

Outcomes -  DEC is able to produce monitoring and site assessment data
necessary to evaluate existing reefs as required by permit conditions and
to evaluate proposed new reef sites.  Existing reef permits are renewed and
new sites are established and permitted.  Inshore and offshore reefs are
enhanced by placement of highest quality reef materials, maximizing
attachment of reef objectives.

Comments - Fishing license revenue is not typically used to cover capital
construction costs or the cost of acquiring land and/or buildings.  Either
federal grants or the State capital budget is used for that.  However, DEC
can take Wallop-Breaux money that we use to build boat ramps and any other
capital money from other grants and a small amount of license money to
solve the capital project administrative problems and deliver a lot more
projects on the ground.   A pressing need is to hire an additional engineer
in DECs Facilities Design Office and dedicate that person to designing
boat ramps, fishing piers, and other access facilities.

The group felt that, before money is channeled into the artificial reef
program, there should be more specific sites stated.  There was also
concern expressed regarding the difficulties associated with acquiring
permits for artificial reefs, a subject discussed at the January 2004
meeting of the Marine Resources Advisory Council.

E. Fishing Access - Facilitate & expedite the development of boat ramps and
shore fishing access facilities.  Secure state and federal capital funds
for construction.  Accelerate completion of facility design, bidding and
award of construction contracts.

Outcomes - New boat ramps, piers and shore access facilities are completed
more expeditiously.  New project opportunities to improve fishing access
are identified.

Comments - DEC is working on different stages of development for ramps on
Long Islands North Shore.  The group viewed this suggestion positively,
although some felt that ramps are expensive and any one ramp benefits only
a small fraction of the marine recreational fishing industry in New York.

E.  Surveys - Anglers are periodically surveyed to ascertain their
satisfaction, motivation, needs for increased participation, etc.

Outcomes  DEC and fishing industry are able to modify their marine angler
services to better meet the needs and expectations of the marine
recreational fishing public, thereby maintaining and building participation
rates.

Comments  This activity was generally accepted and viewed as positive.

IV. Research

A. Research  Conduct targeted research on issues of priority to New Yorks
marine recreational fishing community (e.g., predation rates on winter
flounder; impact of piscivorus wildlife on marine fish stocks; release
mortality rates; biology, movements, and dynamics of local stocks of fish
such as tautog and winter flounder, etc.)

Outcomes  Information that enables management to improve fish stocks and
angling success.

Comments  Fish habitat research would benefit tremendously as well as many
other programs. Not all the research funding should come from saltwater
license revenues, but a small part of it would/should.  NMFS does not
maintain a laboratory in New York State and this limits the amount of
federal dollars available to New York for marine fisheries and fisheries
habitat research.  There are currently only two marine fishery researchers
at Stony Brook Universitys Marine Sciences Research Center, and one of
them is currently the Dean and has limited time to dedicate to research.
It was suggested that research into artificial stock enhancement and
restoration should also be encompassed in the research category.  This
category was viewed as positive and received support from the group.

V. Habitat Inventorying

A.  Habitat - Inventory and assess important fish habitat in New Yorks
Marine District, such as wetlands, eelgrass beds, rock/reef/shell bed
habitat.

Outcomes  A better understanding of the location, extent and condition of
marine fishery habitat enables management intervention to protect, restore,
and improve habitats as necessary.

Comments - There were no comments regarding this suggested issue.

The discussion group decided that all of Mr. Colvins suggested
programs/activities that might be funded through marine recreational
fishing license revenues were worthy of further consideration, although
some alternatives were clearly viewed more favorably than others. Mr. Wise
will assemble a smaller group to develop and expand on the above-suggested
activities, particularly their estimated annual cost.  This information
would then be presented to the full discussion group for its review and
consideration at a future meeting. 

The next discussion group meeting will be held at 1:00 pm on April 29, 2004
at the Sportfishing Education Center.
  The main topic will be the specific
of a marine recreational fishing license program (i.e., license cost,
procedures to acquire a license, exemptions, mechanisms for industry
involvement in deciding on a license revenue expenditure plan, etc.).  The
group will work off the licensing proposal prepared and circulated some
time ago by Pat Augustine.


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